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Auteur Sujet: Ships and centers of shipbuilding  (Lu 648 fois)

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Hors ligne Moine Noir

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Ships and centers of shipbuilding
« le: août 29, 2015, 14:10:42 pm »
[source wiki] Ships are watercraft used in the Known World. They include smaller fisher boats and raider vessels, various warships and trade ships, up to the huge war dromonds and the magnificent swan ships that cross the Summer Sea.

[source wiki] The major fleets of the Seven Kingdoms are the Iron Fleet and the fleets of the ironborn, based in the Iron Islands, the royal fleet based at King's Landing (Cercei's dromonds, 10 vessels, built in a few weeks) and Dragonstone, and the Redwyne fleet based at the Arbor. The North has had no strength at sea since Brandon the Burner put Brandon the Shipwright's remaining ships to the torch hundreds of years ago.

[source wiki] In the rest of the Seven Kingdoms, lords whose lands abut the coast might keep a war galley or three for coastal defense against pirates, but only major houses like the Lannisters have larger and grander fleets of twenty to thirty ships. Usually for major battles, the lords call the ships of their various bannermen. While the Greyjoys' main force is the Iron Fleet, they can also raise hundreds of ironborn ships. However, most of those will be longships made for raids rather than battle. Other Westerosi lords are more likely to have larger and more formidable ships like cogs, carracks, and war galleys of various sides, up to the great dromonds with scorpions and catapults on deck. The Tyrells are in more or less the same position as the Lannisters, though they depend even more on their bannermen, especially the lords of the Shield Islands off the mouth of the Mander. The Hightowers have only a few warships, but control Oldtown, home to numerous trading vessels.

[source wiki] In Qarth the Thirteen control about 1,000 ships, the Ancient Guild of Spicers own about 1,200 or 1,300, and the Tourmaline Brotherhood has about 800. The Arsenal of Braavos can reportedly build a war galley in a day. Ibben makes use of fat-bellied whaling ships with hulls black with tar and people of the Summer Islands use swan ships.

[source wiki] Ships are used in small skirmishes, raids, and full-scale naval engagements, such as the Battle of Fair Isle. Lords whose lands abut the coast might need to maintain a few war galleys to defend against piracy. Ships are also use for support roles, such as providing provisions and transporting troops. The basic tactic of naval battles is to get the ship close enough to ram the other ship, board her, and fight the rest of the battle on the deck. Up until they close longbows and crossbows can be used. Sometimes siege weapons are carried on the largest war galleys.
1/ Longships of the Iron Fleet are used as fast raiding ships. They can travel twice as swiftly as a merchant cog and can carry up to 100 men. The standard tactic for engaging is to board the enemy ship. The crew being combatants, as well as the ironborn preference for wearing armor despite the risk of drowning, gives the ironborn an advantage when boarding.
2/ War galleys or dromonds are larger than normal galleys and carry more tonnage as a result of being equipped with a ram, and they may equip siege weapons like ballista or catapults. They also have a larger compliment of oarsmen and soldiers onboard. The standard tactic for engaging is to ram the enemy ship, causing it to sink, or to board it if the attacking ship has a greater number of soldiers and wishes to capture the enemy ship intact. They are presumably the kind of ship that George R. R. Martin has compared to Venetian/Byzantine dromonds of war. The standard war galley in Westeros has 100 oars and oarmen, with the larger ships adding more decks of 100 oarsmen. Myrish war galleys appear to have no more than 80 oars.
3/ Swan ships are known to have red archers, companies that help defend the vessel from attack. Women serve on swan ships and can command the red archers.

[source wiki] Trading vessels include:
1/ Galleys, vessels larger than boats, are propelled by sail or oar power. They are used for warfare, trade and piracy. Due to their low setting they are primarily coastal ships, preferring to thread through archipelagos rather than risking even a moderate sea. Their large rower crew makes them maneuverable and swift but also require frequent stops for food and water. The galley has supplemental sails to replace or augment the effort of the rowers, particularly during long journeys. The ability to travel swiftly without regard to the direction or strength of the wind becomes invaluable for daylight expeditions across open water. The real world, practical upper limit for a galley fast and maneuverable enough for warfare was around 25-30 oars per side. By adding another level of oars, the galley could be made shorter with as many rowers, while making them strong enough to be effective ramming weapons. The flagship of House Hightower, Honor of Oldtown, and the flagship of the royal fleet, King Robert's Hammer, are the two largest known galleys in Westeros.
2/ Cogs are mostly propelled by sails, which make them difficult to sail, especially upwind, and they are hostage to breezes and currents in a way that the swift galley is not. However, it can better manage rough seas and its small crew and ample storage space give it greater freedom of movement, making it perfect for trade or equipment transport.
3/ Carracks are large ocean-going vessels. They are stable in heavy seas,and roomy enough to carry provisions for long voyages.
4/ Whalers are fat-bellied ships with huge hulls black with tar from Ibben used to hunt and process whales in the Shivering Sea.
« Modifié: août 30, 2015, 11:12:42 am par Moine Noir »
“L’homme qui prononce la sentence devrait tenir l’épée.” – Ned Stark

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Ships and centers of shipbuilding
« Réponse #1 le: août 30, 2015, 11:15:19 am »
Evaluation du prix des navires marchands (non destinés à la guerre) à partir du coût des navires de guerre : +7 pts de puissance pour 5 unités, soit +1.2 pts de puissance/unité, soit +2.4 pts de richesse/unité, soit 480 dragons d'or/galère.

On peut estimer que le coût des navires marchands de type caraque était sensiblement moindre. Une bonne mesure peut être +2 pts de richesses/caraque, soit 400 dragons d'or/caraque, soit 10 pts de richesse pour 5 unités, soit +5 pts de puissance pour 5 unités.

Sachant que la ressource cale sèche permet de réduire les coûts de 3 pts de puissance (6 pts de richesses) soit
- navires de guerre : +4 pts de puissance pour 5 unités, soit 8 pts de richesses pour 5 unités.
- navires de commerce : +2 pts de puissance pour 5 unités, soit 4 pts de richesses pour 5 unités.

Il faut ajouter 3 pts de puissance (6 pts de richesse) si les marins sont entraînés (salaires, coût de l’entraînement, entretien des troupes et du matériel pendant la durée de vie des navires, etc.).
« Modifié: mars 14, 2016, 18:16:42 pm par Moine Noir »
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Combined Westerosi fleet - an estimation
« Réponse #2 le: mars 04, 2016, 17:33:15 pm »
[source: westeros.org]

The three traditional main naval powers are the Royal Navy, the Redwyne Fleet, and the Greyjoy Fleet.

The Royal Navy has ~100 war galleys. During AGOT ~50 were based at Dragonstone, and ~50 remained in the capital. Of Stannis' ~200 ships on the Blackwater, we are talking about the 50 war galleys of the Royal Navy, ~10 war galleys of his lords of the Narrow Sea, ~40 Myrish sellsails, and ~30 Lysene pirate galleys, alongside ~70 other merchant cogs, fishing skiffs and other civilian ships.

The Greyjoy Fleet includes the Iron Fleet, which is 100 longships meant for war, rather than raiding. At Pyke Theon spots ~400 captains, which would give the Iron Isles another ~300 smaller longships better suited to raiding that war. A total of ~400 longships seems rather fair IMHO, but the maximalists would aim closer to ~1,000 based on an offhand remark in some SSM where GRRM says that each of the great lords of the Iron Isles probably controls "that much" (refering to the 100 ships of the Iron Fleet). I think that was poorly thouht out and on the spot guestimation on GRRM's part, and that it was at most refering to any naval craft on the Iron Isles, the bulk of which should not be counted for war. Cersei's remark in the books that the Ironborn cannot possibly have 1,000 ships as the panicked message from Reach say, is also closer to reality, unless, again, any craft that can make the trip was used to transport loot back to the Iron Isles while the combat ships remained for war.

The Redwyne Fleet is given as 200 war galleys, and ~1,000 civilian ships. We know that Oldtown at least has a fleet of it's own, and we know that Lannisport is smaller and has 25-30 war ships. I think it is only fair to give Oldtown the same at least. The Shield Islands had ~50 patrol longships, and if we go with Mallister's 6 longships to 2 galleys ratio for coastal defense, it can be reasonable to assume that there are other galleys along the Reach's western shore that can be gathered, giving the Reach as a whole ~300 war galleys at least, based on the long coastline and starting from 225-230 from Redwyne and Hightower alone. By the same logic I would also place the Lannisters at ~50 war ships total from all of thier coastal bannermen plus the Lannisport fleet.

Mallister's 2 galleys are not likely to be joined by many others from the Riverlands, considering that there are not many lords aside from him with access to the Sunset Sea, and the few lords near the Narrow Sea don't strik me as having the funds, let alone the reason, to keep any significant of Green-water navy, let alone a Blue-water navy.

The North's traditional lack of navy was very recently placed on hold after Manderly established a fleet estimated at ~50 war galleys.

The Stormlands and the Vale have no information about ships. Dorne at least has the excuse that most of it's coastline is hostile to ships. I guesstimate ~50 war galleys for each, with an edge to the Stormlands, mostly for coastal defense.

So, if Westeros was to go as a united front, with the Manderly Fleet still there for some reason, and the Royal Navy and others back to full numbers, the combined fleet (only counting actual war ships) would be:

Royal Navy/Crownlands - 100

Stormlands/Vale/Dorne/Westerlands/North + Whatever the Riverlands can donate - ~250

Iron Islands - 100

Reach ~300

Total: ~750 war ships. A grand armada including support ships and sellsails and comandeered civilian ships would be in the ~3,000-5,000 range.
« Modifié: février 25, 2018, 11:49:27 am par Moine Noir »
“L’homme qui prononce la sentence devrait tenir l’épée.” – Ned Stark

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